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 Totems and materialization

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STBen



Posts : 1083
Join date : 2013-09-22

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Breed: Homid
Auspice: Philodox
Tribe: Uktena

PostSubject: Totems and materialization   Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:10 pm

Heya, folks. Quick ruling:

Having reviewed the relevant sections of the rules and addendum, here's my conclusion. The totem ability to materialize doesn't stipulate that it ceases to be an action. Therefore, it remains an action.

The "materialize without cost" wording is a little odd, given that in revised, materialize doesn't actually mention an Essence cost; I strongly suspect that this is simply a holdover from the red book, where materialize was quite costly, if I recall correctly.

Unlimited instantaneous materialization and dematerialization would be an astoundingly powerful advantage, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Barring language elsewhere in the rules and/or addendum which explicitly affirms the ability to materialize and dematerialize as a non-action, or a ruling to that effect from higher up the chain of command, we will not be using that interpretation.
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Daniel Aerin Mille-Sandre

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Breed: Lupus
Auspice: Theurge
Tribe: Silver Fangs

PostSubject: Re: Totems and materialization   Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:08 pm

So would there still be an advantage then of buying the 5 point Totem power we're discussing if it cannot be used in conjunction either with the actions allowed by the addendum or outside of them?

Explanation: I'm talking about the non-contested activation of a power or item useable once during everyman, and the completion of one non-challenge task allowed every action, both alongside the contested challenge. I didn't think that deactivating the Materialize would be something other than a non-challenge task or non-action, since it is not a challenge and not an activation, so I didn't think it would be a problem in the first place to flicker in and out on the Everyman with either the Charm or the 5-pointer. I didn't attempt to use it on a Rage action, but since the 5-pointer is not even a Charm but a natural ability, I apparently falsely assumed that the Totem could Materialize or Dematerialize or both depending on the ST.

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Daniel Aerin Mille-Sandre, Poison's Leash of Weregild, once Ethereal Quality of Ultima Ratio
Born on Four Legs under a Crescent Moon, Fostern of the Nation
*Pure Breed 3: Silver Fangs, Appearance 5, Natural Channel, Spirit Speaker, Axis Mundi
**Blessed by Lion in Alaska to bear one golden lock of hair
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STBrian



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PostSubject: Re: Totems and materialization   Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:14 pm

Activating a Charm is in itself an action.

As a game balance issue, nothing will be allowed to flicker into existence, take an action, then disappear again with no chop and with no opportunity for it to be interacted with.  That's the reason for this ruling.  Once we separate that out, I'd like to see what the further issues are here, because from Phil's response I think there's more to work out here than that simple mechanic.

As for the "depending on the ST remark", I fully support this ruling, and any ST who allowed free shots with no chance for response, was in error. It's crap if the bad guys do it too.
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Daniel Aerin Mille-Sandre

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Breed: Lupus
Auspice: Theurge
Tribe: Silver Fangs

PostSubject: Re: Totems and materialization   Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:06 pm

Okay. Assuming that nothing can pop into and out of existence in the same action with no chance of interaction is now a fixture of the rules, I'd like to tease out the other details as you suggest. I'll start by posting the addendum mechanics for what actions each character gets on each turn and on each action on their initiative:

TAKING ACTIONS
On your Initiative you may do each and every one of the following:
● Activate one power or item that does not require a Contested Challenge (only on normal Everyman Action).
● Take up to the number of steps allowed by your current form (roughly one yard per step).
● Attempt one Contested Challenge.
● Perform a task that does not require a Challenge.
● Spend Rage Traits (Rage may be spent during the Everyman Action and also may be spent to take Rage actions after the Everyman Action, only if you do not spend Gnosis Traits or initiate a Gnosis Challenge.
● Spend Gnosis Traits (May only be spent during the Everyman Action, and only if you do not spend Rage
Traits or initiate a Rage Challenge.
● Spend Willpower Traits (May be spent at any time).

So my new question is which of these actions would you call materialization with no challenge/comparison/cost, which of these actions is activating th materialize charm, and which of these actions is ending the effect of materialization from a Charm or other effect?

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Daniel Aerin Mille-Sandre, Poison's Leash of Weregild, once Ethereal Quality of Ultima Ratio
Born on Four Legs under a Crescent Moon, Fostern of the Nation
*Pure Breed 3: Silver Fangs, Appearance 5, Natural Channel, Spirit Speaker, Axis Mundi
**Blessed by Lion in Alaska to bear one golden lock of hair
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STBrian



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PostSubject: Re: Totems and materialization   Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:32 pm

Slow down a sec man, I'm not making announcements about "fixtures of the rules", I'm talking about guiding principles.  Being internally consistent is not a possibility with this jury rigged, butchered and stapled together rule set.  

I'm not going to generalize this to something all-encompassing.  We're talking about one specific ability, and that's the ability of Totems to Materialize in Prime Material then to turn off that charm and depart.

What I *am* saying is that popping into reality, taking an action, then disappearing again without any chance of reaction isn't kosher.  

Materialize is a charm.  Materialization as a Totem ability is the use of that charm.  Using a Charm is an action.   Ending that Charms effect (ie: leaving Prime Material) should trigger at end of round.

If you have further questions about this, or you disagree with my interpretation, you are free to take it to the Rules list, that's what it's for.

Ex, the following are both fine, and I think there's a discussion to be had about which is valid:

With Materialize Charm.
Round 1 : On init Redbull the Totem activates Charm: Materialize.  Redbull appears in PM.
Round 2 : Redbull activates Blast, declaring its intent to withdraw at end of round.
EO Round 2 : Redbull withdraws.

With Materialization perk (Most liberal interpretation of this Perk's power)
Round 1 (Pre-round) : Redbull declares it's going to manifest.
Round 1 : Redbull uses Charm : Blast on its init, declaring its intent to withdraw at end of round.
EO Round 1 : Redbull withdraws.

---

I'm not okay with this:

Round 1 (Pre-round) : Redbull declares it's going to manifest on its init.
Round 1 : Redbull uses Blast, declaring its intent to withdraw.  It disappears on its init. as the blast goes off.
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STBen



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Auspice: Philodox
Tribe: Uktena

PostSubject: Re: Totems and materialization   Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:54 pm

Small side note: there IS a comparison involved in Materialize, albeit no challenge. The spirit can only Materialize if its Gnosis equals or exceeds the local Gauntlet rating.

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STBrian



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PostSubject: Re: Totems and materialization   Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:22 pm

( I pushed this upstairs. I'll have a response shortly hopefully)
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STBrian



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PostSubject: Re: Totems and materialization   Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:05 pm

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STBrian



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PostSubject: Re: Totems and materialization   Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:40 pm

Per Josh on Rules Team:

Quote :
"Interesting. The chart on page 91 listing what powers a Totem can purchase
does not list that as a purchasable power, while the chart on page 249
does. Given that there are conflicting rules for Totem creation, the fact
that Materializing does not have a cost in LARP, I would personally rule
that the 'Can materialize when needed without cost' is actually a misprint
from an earlier version of the book where Materialize cost essence. Allow
PCs to shift their points around as necessary.

Just for historical reference, at least in 2nd Ed Tabletop, Materialize
cost Power to 'build a body'. In W20, on the other hand, there is no cost.
Can't find my 3rd Ed book at the moment to see which side it was on. It's
also worth noting that W20 reprinted the chart that did not have the 'Can
materialize without cost' power."

Point for Ben on catching the 2nd ed carryover. Also states that dematerializing is an action, though it does occur immediately (not EO Round/Action)
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Daniel Aerin Mille-Sandre

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Auspice: Theurge
Tribe: Silver Fangs

PostSubject: Re: Totems and materialization   Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:16 am

I accept that both are actions, I've never stated otherwise, and I agree with you both completely on that 100%. The higher ups have clarified that it is a misprint just as you thought, so we no longer need to discuss anything other than the Materialize Charm itself and Dematerializing by shutting off the Charm. What I was trying to get you to establish is "what kind of action" you are stating the powers to be, so now I just want you to establish what kind of action Materialize and Dematerialize are. If I want to draw a weapon fetish, activate it, and fire it all on everyman, I can. That is legal, it is the basis of the addendum mechanics section.

So if we are just trying to prevent materialize and dematerialize as part of the same action, and because they are both instantaneous, and because they both cost nothing, and because they both have no challenge, just say this: Materialize and Dematerialize are both classified as the Non-challenge items that are allowed each Action alongside the contested challenge, and the non-opposed challenge allowed only on everyman cannot be used to Materialize in lieu of a non-opposed challenge. I think that would correct my error, do what you want to prevent shannanigans in the future, and not require any deviation from the addendum. Good?

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Daniel Aerin Mille-Sandre, Poison's Leash of Weregild, once Ethereal Quality of Ultima Ratio
Born on Four Legs under a Crescent Moon, Fostern of the Nation
*Pure Breed 3: Silver Fangs, Appearance 5, Natural Channel, Spirit Speaker, Axis Mundi
**Blessed by Lion in Alaska to bear one golden lock of hair
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STBrian



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PostSubject: Re: Totems and materialization   Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:00 pm

Correct. I'd prefer to have activating a charm to always fill up the contested challenge slot, but the addendum as written is pretty clear that since there's no chop, it doesn't count for that slot.
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Daniel Aerin Mille-Sandre

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Tribe: Silver Fangs

PostSubject: Re: Totems and materialization   Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:01 pm

understood.

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Daniel Aerin Mille-Sandre, Poison's Leash of Weregild, once Ethereal Quality of Ultima Ratio
Born on Four Legs under a Crescent Moon, Fostern of the Nation
*Pure Breed 3: Silver Fangs, Appearance 5, Natural Channel, Spirit Speaker, Axis Mundi
**Blessed by Lion in Alaska to bear one golden lock of hair
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